billmc
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Intesting stuff, Danny Ray. My time is limited this morning, but my point-of-view is that beliefs are pretty sterile until/unless they are put into action. This, imo, works for both “good beliefs” and “bad beliefs”. Bad beliefs are harmless unless put into action. And Jesus said that his followers would be known, not by their beliefs, but by the good fruit, their actions. If someone wants to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, though I find the belief nonsensical and to go against how human reproduction works, I don’t mind that *they* hold to that belief as long as they don’t insist that *I* hold to it, especially as the belief has no direct bearing on producing fruit.
So I’m interested in your critique of Pagle’s book. I don’t have time to read it right now.
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Danny Ray
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Bill:
Good points-makes me think, but I believe you’re on to something! Perhaps there are people who live the Christian perspective but don’t wear the name and unfortunately vice-versa?
Once visited a buddy I trained with and his family in Ireland, and walked to their local Catholic church. The remark pertinent to this discussion involved a statement to his congregation in which he pondered that: “If there was persecution of Christians today, would there be enough evidence in our lives to convict us?” On side note that goes along with my other post of today—very interesting priest, took off his sandals and said he should walk barefoot all the time remarking that “all ground is holy ground”.
In medicine, we use the term “Cretin” to refer to the mentally deficient offspring of a mother who was hypothyroid during gestation. Interestingly, cretin means Christian in a French dialect. These individuals were felt to be simple, pure and incapable of sin…..so to be called a “Cretin” is a complement?
Still reading Elaine Pagel’s book-“Beyond Belief”. The title also reveals an issue your comment brings up. Which is more important-belief or behavior? Can we live a deep life that goes beyond superficial beliefs?
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billmc
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Danny, considering what you’ve said, this is why, to me, Christianity boils down to loving others. I have little to no use for all of that religion’s doctrines, creeds, and dogmas. But show me some people like Jesus, some people that are, in your words, “amazing people”, and I’ll show you some Christians, despite their belief system. 
billmc
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Danny Ray
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Bill:
Thanks for sharing. I encounter some amazing people. My parents are both 81 and believe it or not–their main source of encouragement (besides their kids) are the workers at the local Taco Bell! They recently dined their for their 60th anniversary. When the staff found out, balloons and flowers quickly materialized at their table. If God did judge, and judged on the curve, these kinda people are throwing the curve off and we would all flunk!
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billmc
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Danny, I’ve read Bart’s book on theodicy (God’s Problem) and think he does a pretty good job of pointing out why the “God’s main function is to prevent our suffering” paradigm is faulty. At the same time, being a deist, I don’t think that the fact that we suffer is so much God’s problem as it is our faulty views of God.
John 11:35 is my very favorite verse in all of the Bible. Those two little words, “Jesus wept” speak volumes.
A few years back, my wife and I lost two children to miscarriage. As can be expected, we heard the standard answers to our grief: Rom 8:28; God’s ways are not our ways; God wanted more angels in heaven; we can always have more children, etc. But the person that helped us the most in our struggles and pain was an old pastor who came to the hospital, sat down with us,…and cried with us. He was wise enough to know that words and shallow answers fail in the harsh reality of life. So, just like Jesus, he wept. And somehow, though it didn’t take our pain or loss away, it made it easier to bear.
In my experience, though we often cry out “Why?” in our pain, I think our real question is “Am I alone?” It is the nature of suffering that it implies that we are alone, that we have been singled out, that there is no one there to cry to or with.
Yes, people look for hope. I suspect that is natural. Often, it is all they can do to find strength and courage for one more day. But I suspect that we do more for each other, not just as doctors but as human beings, if we really take the time to listen to others, to empathize with them, to reassure them that it is okay for them to be where they are and to feel what they feel. And to weep with them when appropriate. This can’t change their circumstances, but it can change how they face their circumstances. And, imo, it is the human and divine thing to do.
billmc
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Danny Ray
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“Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”(1)
As a family doc who does resuscitations, but not resurrections; I’ve stood in many a desperate situation where people look to me for hope.(2) Over the years I’ve developed a repertoire of pithy sayings, but frequently these “all things work together for good”(3) statements are left wanting and I think– WWJD? Yep, there are moments when intellectually constructed words are heartless compared to what still fortunately comes instinctually—I weep!(4)
On the subject of theodicy, best I’ve ever heard is from Bart Ehrman. He has entire book on the subject which I’ve not read, but did hear lecture where he step by step went through the different approaches to explaining suffering. After he went through all the theories trying to rationalize this imperfect world, he concluded—-”I don’t know.”(5)
His final concluding recommendation was to live on and not let the fear of future suffering rob us of today. He agreed any attempts to eliminate suffering were praiseworthy, yet to be sure and enjoy life when you can. In concrete terms, he used the example of, (as long as one is not an alcoholic) that if you enjoy beer always drink only the finest microbrews!
My brief synopsis is not giving Ehrman’s ideas sufficient credit. Also seems we should avoid the analysis paralysis of always asking “why” of God, but instead be motivated and ask “what” can be done to eliminate or fellow human’s suffering. It’s not an accident that scripture repetitively records that mercy to our fellow man is desired more than sacrifice to the Deity.(6) Mercy and love for others—that I think is The Will of God. But I’ve been wrong before…
Whaddayathink?
Footnotes:
1-Romans 12:1-2
2-For Electives, I took the course on Bad Handwriting instead of the one on Miracles.
3-Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
4-John 11:35 Jesus wept.
5-Looked for You Tube on this, gotta be out there but couldn’t find exact lecture.
6-Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Matthew 9:13, But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’
Matthew 12:7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
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